Almost kicked off a messageboard
May. 12th, 2004 10:06 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
nemorathwaldFor a couple of years I've been posting to the forums of the alumni of the private religious college I graduated from. (Here's an essay on what I think about the school.) Yesterday I ticked the moderators off even more than usual. Usually I slightly disguise my controversial opinions about religion to avoid being banned. Not that my affiliations are any secret, but the moderators specifically split off from the old messageboard in protest to the old moderator not keeping a leash on me. I got on a roll and posted more blasphemous logic and heretical free thought than probably any other single day. I'm laughing my butt off making a list of the charges against me:
1. I equated falling in love, religious conversion, listening to a stirring symphony and smoking dope. Kind of forgot myself and went overboard there. That comment got deleted by the moderators and I was told to take it to the Unorthodoxy section of the messageboard which was created for such statements.
2. I argued at length from personal experience that unconditional love is the kiss of death on a relationship. (Weird, I know, but true!)
3. In so doing I inadvertently undermined the plan of salvation in which marriage is a symbol of Christ's unconditional love for his church.
4. I pointed out a demonstrated example of how the doctrine of "everyone's sins are equal in the sight of ghod" is used to give evil a pass and unrealistically vilify the good.
5. When a guy said he was tempted to have an affair, I said the following: "Most of these have told you to run. You know yourself better than I do so maybe you should. But if it were me, I'd do something more clever than a rebuke and depending on what kind of sense of humor she has I might even salvage the work relationship from the awkwardness. You are the one in the situation, but if it were me here's what I would say. First I'd tell her I'm flattered, second I'd say that I know she's an honest person who would never lie to her husband. Third I'd say that therefore he must be as cool and modern as me and her. Fourth I'd suggest that therefore, she should ask him about it and if he gives permission, I'll agree to it. Of course if she gets shocked or even angered by this response, at least I'd have the satisfaction of seeing the look on her face." I got called twisted for that one. :)
6. I said swinging couples aren't cheating. At least I had the presence of mind to issue a disclaimer on that one, to say I was taking no public position for or against it. Just that if, IF, it was wrong, it was a different kind of wrong from deception. That was a close call.
7. I criticized someone for her idea that people can't release each other from their vows. She thinks vows have got nothing to do with benefit to the person being vowed to. In a moment of passion I called this abhorrent and stupid.
8. I advocated Unitarian Universalism.
9. And finally I went over the line in the comment that was the final straw. I told the moderator "Do you say to your loved ones, "you're worthless, but I'll sacrifice by putting up with you, just because I HAVE TO pay back God for doing the same." What that says about your marriage is frightening to contemplate." It was when I mentioned his marriage that he publicly denounced me as a hater of Christianity and the bible, and an enemy of "all they cherish and hold to be eternal." The cool thing is (and this is what I'm laughing about)-- I was prohibited by their rules from saying that myself and now he's said it for me! You can't buy that kind of publicity.
1. I equated falling in love, religious conversion, listening to a stirring symphony and smoking dope. Kind of forgot myself and went overboard there. That comment got deleted by the moderators and I was told to take it to the Unorthodoxy section of the messageboard which was created for such statements.
2. I argued at length from personal experience that unconditional love is the kiss of death on a relationship. (Weird, I know, but true!)
3. In so doing I inadvertently undermined the plan of salvation in which marriage is a symbol of Christ's unconditional love for his church.
4. I pointed out a demonstrated example of how the doctrine of "everyone's sins are equal in the sight of ghod" is used to give evil a pass and unrealistically vilify the good.
5. When a guy said he was tempted to have an affair, I said the following: "Most of these have told you to run. You know yourself better than I do so maybe you should. But if it were me, I'd do something more clever than a rebuke and depending on what kind of sense of humor she has I might even salvage the work relationship from the awkwardness. You are the one in the situation, but if it were me here's what I would say. First I'd tell her I'm flattered, second I'd say that I know she's an honest person who would never lie to her husband. Third I'd say that therefore he must be as cool and modern as me and her. Fourth I'd suggest that therefore, she should ask him about it and if he gives permission, I'll agree to it. Of course if she gets shocked or even angered by this response, at least I'd have the satisfaction of seeing the look on her face." I got called twisted for that one. :)
6. I said swinging couples aren't cheating. At least I had the presence of mind to issue a disclaimer on that one, to say I was taking no public position for or against it. Just that if, IF, it was wrong, it was a different kind of wrong from deception. That was a close call.
7. I criticized someone for her idea that people can't release each other from their vows. She thinks vows have got nothing to do with benefit to the person being vowed to. In a moment of passion I called this abhorrent and stupid.
8. I advocated Unitarian Universalism.
9. And finally I went over the line in the comment that was the final straw. I told the moderator "Do you say to your loved ones, "you're worthless, but I'll sacrifice by putting up with you, just because I HAVE TO pay back God for doing the same." What that says about your marriage is frightening to contemplate." It was when I mentioned his marriage that he publicly denounced me as a hater of Christianity and the bible, and an enemy of "all they cherish and hold to be eternal." The cool thing is (and this is what I'm laughing about)-- I was prohibited by their rules from saying that myself and now he's said it for me! You can't buy that kind of publicity.
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Fascism
Date: 2004-05-12 09:49 am (UTC)For example, my sister (who practices Orthodox Judaism) doesn't regard me as Jewish because I don't conform to the rules that she follows.
Re: Fascism
Date: 2004-05-12 12:04 pm (UTC)Re: Fascism
Date: 2004-05-13 06:48 am (UTC)Re: Fascism
Date: 2004-05-13 07:00 am (UTC)In all seriousness, I need feedback. I need a fresh outside perspective of my behavior with radical Fundies. Am I just a pundit in these comments? An Al Franken, or Rush Limbaugh, trying to hold up a mirror to get a rise out of them? Trying to provoke them out of complacency with their subculture?
I've got a subculture too, but I don't want to be insulated in a science-fiction club the way they are sheltered in their churches. I go to their board to get jolted out of my ideas of normality. But a lot of them think I'm not even trying to benefit from a back-and-forth discussion. Is it even possible for such distant viewpoints to gain from each other?
Re: Fascism
Date: 2004-05-13 11:31 am (UTC)Sheltered and insulated subcultures
Date: 2004-05-13 12:07 pm (UTC)When you think about it, it's not unique to fundamentalism. There are a lot of subcultures out there. I think part of the definition of a subculture is that it's possible to a signifigant degree to immerse one's self in it. Sometimes I'll be talking exitedly about my ideas with Rachel, who is mostly a Mundane, and suddenly they sound so much more stupid than when I'm talking about them to with Fen. Having a mirror held up to yourself, to show you how alien you really are from a certain point of view, is a humbling experience. Without it you can lose touch with how far you've gone. That's what I mean about an insulated, sheltered subculture-- I'm not using it as an antonym for "worldly" or "sophisticated."
???
Date: 2004-05-14 11:22 am (UTC)This is Garry. Lets be clear here. The reason why I denounced you. (See point 9) was not that you were against Christianity. You had stated that again and again and again. You have been very clear on how you despise the Bible, etc.
I denounced you because you were no longer simply disagreeing or debating the point but rather you were getting very personal and hateful. Yes, say that you don't agree with the Biblical viewpoint of love. That is right and we allow you to do it. You have take the habit though of making very personal attacks against me, my marriage, my parents, and my ministry. You have every right to disagree and we allow you that on the board that we pay money for. You keep crossing the line, getting very personal and more people are noticing.
Garry
Re: ???
Date: 2004-05-14 11:49 am (UTC)I'm sorry for offending you. The way I see it, the one saying unflattering things about your self, your marriage, and your ministry is you. I like you, I'm sure I'd like your church and parents and wife, which is why I defend their honor from your personal attacks on them. I even stand up for you by challenging your own personal attacks on yourself. I point out what it is that you're already saying. I don't remember anything about your parents but I'll bet some of my comments inadvertently applied to them, merely through implication. Now what you have done, and I appreciate you doing it, is the same: pointing out what I'm implying about people which I may not have even intended.
What I've tried to do by making it personal is to show application where the rubber hits the road. I thought to myself, "he can deny it in the rarified atmosphere of abstractions, but surely he'll see it if I point it out in his observable life." I guess it didn't work. I'm really sorry for my social clumsiness and insensitivity.
Re: ???
Date: 2004-05-14 11:55 am (UTC)You don't even see it. No one else sees it as you "doing me a favor." They are saying, "Boy, is he insulting and condescending." You have no concept of what you are even saying. I don't see this with anger by incredulity.
Garry
Re: ???
Date: 2004-05-14 12:10 pm (UTC)I'm sorry for calling you "Mike" my bad. My boss is "Mike." Btw, you were not almost "kicked off" either.
Re: ???
Date: 2004-05-14 12:12 pm (UTC)Actually, I do see my failure and that's why I acknowledged your point. Stepping outside of the perspective I that is normal (normal relative to me at least), and into their shoes, I see how those who have the same problem that I'm critiquing would perceive it that way, because they don't step into my shoes.
One of the problems with dealing with alien perspectives, is people start to get desperate and escalate their tactics. Condescension is almost inevitable. And as for insulting, well. Give up. We simply must put up with insulting each other as you and I have done, because the insult is inherent to the difference in our belief schemas. Even if we never met each other the implicit insults would be there just by virtue of passively and silently believing certain things about the world and people in general. I at least bring it out in the open. Again, I know your motivations are pure and you really think you never insult me, and I appreciate that about you. I see how I insult people, and your ability to think you are not doing so, I find a charming quirk. I accept it as inevitable and not malicious, and I accept you.
Re: ???
Date: 2004-05-14 12:19 pm (UTC)OK, that's all good.
Perhaps you can confirm a hypothesis of mine. You need to keep order on the board to avoid the troglodytes rising up against the homosexuals and atheists. So, you need to create the impression of keeping me in line. That would explain why you told me several of things about myself I don't even deny-- which also serves to identify me to those who might otherwise trust what I'm saying as if it were coming from a godly friend. You give the impression of slapping my wrist to satisfy the troglodytes that the men of God are truly in control of this messageboard. If so, this is a shrewd political move that gives everybody what they want. Kudos to you.
Or maybe I'm over-analyzing and you were just following some rulebook. I'd like to think not.
Re: ???
Date: 2004-05-14 12:34 pm (UTC)I actually correspond with several atheists/agnostics in email, and although we have presuppositional differences, it has never come down to insults at all, period. You are unique amongst others who hold your world view. You are personal about it. As someone said who read some of your posts, "He isn't an atheist, he's just angry."
Regarding the Trogdolyte comment. Bad form. I said what I said on my own. I am not putting on appearances to "slap you down" for anyone. I simply want you to debate in a more human manner."
Garry
Re: ???
Date: 2004-05-14 01:08 pm (UTC)We can't do that on PCCboard. I have very little interest in arid abstractions. Issues anger me, no question. I am personal, because it matters. I don't know how that would make me no longer an atheist, unless the person was commenting that I'm just angry at God. I'm angry at the creaters and followers. I haven't lost the ability to feel outrage when called for.
What do you ask me to do to debate in a more human manner? Pretend it doesn't matter? The happy illusion that what we're saying doesn't reflect negatively on the people we're talking to? Or maybe you want me to restrict my comments to chitchat about the weather?
As for your reasons for posting what you did, go back and look at your post in question. It's only on this livejournal that you've said I was getting personal, and only here have you said I should debate in a more humane manner. I will quote you here:
"Matt,
You know what is ironic? For all of your vaunting of logic and reason you have no desire to understand or learn. You have such a hatred for Christianity that the slightest Biblical principle is a stench in your nostrils. You feel compelled to lash out at various Scriptural teachings and twist them. You have never experienced any of these in your life and so you feel the need to mock and deride them in others.
If you wish to honestly debate things, seeking to understand, question or disagree, feel free to do so as the various forums allow. If you wish to tear apart, mock and blaspheme that which the majority of the board considers precious and eternal, then please leave."
The only thing accomplished by the above is to brand me an outsider, which you are right to do. I'm glad to hear what you wanted to say, but you didn't say it on the board.
Re: ???
Date: 2004-05-14 01:29 pm (UTC)I posted it here out of a desire to keep it off the board.
You had already identified yourself as an outsider far more times then I can count. It makes no sense. You stand and proclaim that you have left Biblical Christianity and God far behind. You constantly address all issues from that perspective, then you are suprised that someone says, "You are different"? Its rather disengenious.
Garry
Re: ???
Date: 2004-05-14 01:34 pm (UTC)I ask you to do so because that is what is expected out of all of us, regardless of relgion, race etc. No one is asking you to be hypocritical. Most people are capable of debating these heart issues without acting in an ugly bitter manner.
Garry
Point 4
Date: 2004-05-14 01:36 pm (UTC)Re: ???
Date: 2004-05-14 01:58 pm (UTC)I do not now, nor have I ever, disapproved of you identifying me as an outsider!
Re: Point 4
Date: 2004-05-14 02:05 pm (UTC)Re: ???
Date: 2004-05-14 02:35 pm (UTC)Re: ???
Date: 2004-05-14 02:49 pm (UTC)