I think it is important to understand that I make no assertion that Christians are right. In fact, quite the opposite, their beliefs are in almost direct opposition to most of mine. The assertion I make regards intent; let us remember where this all began.
I find it hard to feel "betrayed" by someone who was wrong. Other people feel perfectly comfortable being angry and feeling betrayed merely for being misinformed. That's their thing... and I'm cool with that. I just don't have the time in my life to waste with such (seemingly) unfounded anger. I ahve found much better things to randomly anger myself over....
Science if full of "oops" moments and denials of reality. The Cosmological Constant was adhered to by some scientists with almost religious fervor for WAY too long. I don't get angry that we were wrong about science. I don't get angry when I think of all of the science that we currently believe but will ultimately be disproven years from now. I also don't get angry because some people teach that incorrect science today. People teach what they believe to be true... and I can't find anger or betrayal in myself for that..
I think the most telling thing is this:
Think of a proposition that looks overwhelmingly more likely than the alternatives to you. After that happened, how much did you need to have a weekly infomercial-style pep rally in which, if only you all shout "amen" loud enough and sing it over and over until you're practically in a self-hypnotic trance, you convince yourself that you truly believe it?
I read that to mean, because you dissaprove of their method of belief... because you feel that their way of believing can be characterized as an "infomercial-style pep rally".. it smacks of dishonesty. I disagree... it smacks of comfort. I try not to judge those that need such simple, obvious things as comfort anymore than I judge polytheistic societies that relied on mythology for their science in years gone by. Were they stupid? No, just ignorant.
It is plausible that my belief structure will one day be disproved. That one day, it will be PROVEN that there is no God. I don't believe it will be, because I believe that there is a God... but it is plausible. It is similarly plausible that my belief structure will one day be PROVEN, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Until that time... my assumption is that anyone who genuinely believes, regardless of how *YOU* characterize their belief, is not lying... they're just risking being wrong.
Is it pushing reality out of conciousness? Nope. It's viewing reality the way that makes sense to the individual. As we adopt new scientific theories, are those that are reluctant to give up their old, not-yet-demonstrably disproven theories liars? No, they are clinging to the beliefs that form their view of the world around them... just as theists cling to God and atheists cling to the lack of God... to change requres an amazing mental shift... I know, I once believed in a Christian God... then I became an atheist. I spent some 15 years of my life as an atheist... and a bitter one. Today, I have a relatively recently acquired non-Christian faith in God. It is a distinct shift in intellect, perspective, and thought process... and is therefore resisted...
At the end of the day, this is really a relatively pointless thread to follow. We aren't discussing the same thing. My concern is with the mischaracterization of the teachings of religious parents and clergy as "a statement made by someone who believes or suspects it to be false, in the expectation that the hearers may believe it" (because that is what a lie is)... your contention is that a fiction is a lie... which is simply, definitionally, untrue. A fiction, while it may be false, cannot be a lie unless it is A) known to be false and B) delivered with the intent to deceive. I don't think that your average believer qualifies... regardless of how "foolish" or "self-hypnotic" their method of worship might be.
There are many logically valid and rhetorically sound reasons to bash Christianity... this isn't one of them.
no subject
I find it hard to feel "betrayed" by someone who was wrong. Other people feel perfectly comfortable being angry and feeling betrayed merely for being misinformed. That's their thing... and I'm cool with that. I just don't have the time in my life to waste with such (seemingly) unfounded anger. I ahve found much better things to randomly anger myself over....
Science if full of "oops" moments and denials of reality. The Cosmological Constant was adhered to by some scientists with almost religious fervor for WAY too long. I don't get angry that we were wrong about science. I don't get angry when I think of all of the science that we currently believe but will ultimately be disproven years from now. I also don't get angry because some people teach that incorrect science today. People teach what they believe to be true... and I can't find anger or betrayal in myself for that..
I think the most telling thing is this:
I read that to mean, because you dissaprove of their method of belief... because you feel that their way of believing can be characterized as an "infomercial-style pep rally".. it smacks of dishonesty. I disagree... it smacks of comfort. I try not to judge those that need such simple, obvious things as comfort anymore than I judge polytheistic societies that relied on mythology for their science in years gone by. Were they stupid? No, just ignorant.
It is plausible that my belief structure will one day be disproved. That one day, it will be PROVEN that there is no God. I don't believe it will be, because I believe that there is a God... but it is plausible. It is similarly plausible that my belief structure will one day be PROVEN, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Until that time... my assumption is that anyone who genuinely believes, regardless of how *YOU* characterize their belief, is not lying... they're just risking being wrong.
Is it pushing reality out of conciousness? Nope. It's viewing reality the way that makes sense to the individual. As we adopt new scientific theories, are those that are reluctant to give up their old, not-yet-demonstrably disproven theories liars? No, they are clinging to the beliefs that form their view of the world around them... just as theists cling to God and atheists cling to the lack of God... to change requres an amazing mental shift... I know, I once believed in a Christian God... then I became an atheist. I spent some 15 years of my life as an atheist... and a bitter one. Today, I have a relatively recently acquired non-Christian faith in God. It is a distinct shift in intellect, perspective, and thought process... and is therefore resisted...
At the end of the day, this is really a relatively pointless thread to follow. We aren't discussing the same thing. My concern is with the mischaracterization of the teachings of religious parents and clergy as "a statement made by someone who believes or suspects it to be false, in the expectation that the hearers may believe it" (because that is what a lie is)... your contention is that a fiction is a lie... which is simply, definitionally, untrue. A fiction, while it may be false, cannot be a lie unless it is A) known to be false and B) delivered with the intent to deceive. I don't think that your average believer qualifies... regardless of how "foolish" or "self-hypnotic" their method of worship might be.
There are many logically valid and rhetorically sound reasons to bash Christianity... this isn't one of them.